HomeMy WebLinkAbout07/29/1987 Meeting
MINUTES
e Eugene City Council
Lunch/Work Session
McNutt Room--City Hall
July 29, 1987
11:30 a.m.
COUNCILORS PRESENT: Debra Ehrman, Freeman Holmer, Ruth Bascom, Jeff Miller,
Cynthia Wooten, Roger Rutan, Robert Bennett.
COUNCILORS ABSENT: Emily Schue.
The adjourned meeting of July 27, 1987, was called to order by His
Honor Mayor Brian B. Obie.
I. ITEMS FROM COUNCIL, MAYOR, AND CITY MANAGER
A. CCED/Hayward Field/Future of Our Library
Mr. Rutan reported that the next meeting of the Council Committee on Economic
Diversification had been rescheduled to next Wednesday.
e Mr. Rutan also reported that a new surface was being applied to Hayward Field.
He said City and University of Oregon representatives were looking at a master
plan for the project. He said the Design Review Committee, which included
Ci ty representatives, was developing an intergovernmental agreement that
would be presented to Springfield.
Ms. Ehrman reported that the Future of Our Library Committee last night had
held a public information session to review an analysis of the current site
and four options for a future site. She said turnout had been good, with more
than 100 people present. She said a public hearing was scheduled for August
20, adding that she hoped the format would be similar to a recent forum at the
Conference Center, with a microphone prOVided for testimony. Ms. Ehrman said
the library committee would make a recommendation to the Council later in the
year.
B. Local Voters' Pamphlet
Mr. Holmer noted that the Council previously had received a May 13, 1987, memo
from Public Information Director Barbara Bellamy on the subject of a local
voters' pamphlet. He cited future decisions on the Library and the Nuclear
Free Zone Ordinance as issues that might be included in a local election
publication. He suggested that the Council examine the idea and discuss
whether and how to follow up the process suggested in the memo. Mr. Holmer
volunteered to work with other councilors on a more detailed proposal for
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Counc 11 action. Mr. Rutan said he supported the idea, and he and Mr. Miller
volunteered to work on a proposal. Ms. Ehrman said City departments now issue
e numerous publications, and she was interested in consolidating departments'
information efforts. She said she saw the voters' pamphlet as a separate
issue. Ms. Bascom said she would agree to try a voters' pamphlet on critical
issues. She also suggested examining the need for another quarterly
newsletter, which she did not favor. She suggested raising the issue at the
fall goals session, and councilors agreed.
C. Nuclear Free Zone Task Force Process
Mr. Rutan noted that counci lors on Monday night had received written
correspondence and petition signatures regarding the Nuclear Free Zone Task
Force. He said complaints were being received about the task force process
and di rect ion. Mr. Rutan said he had understood that the task force was
proceeding in good faith, and he asked councilors to comment.
Mayor Obie said he had urged task force Chair Gerry Gaydos to encourage a
broader consensus among the group, and he characterized the public comments as
the "pains" of those attempts.
Ms. Wooten said she thought councilors on the task force had expressed their
concern and frustration about the process. She said the task force had been
so well-apPointed that it accurately reflected the vote of the community,
which favored the ballot measure by a majority but which also represented
strong and deep feelings on both sides of the issues. She said broadening the
consensus for a recommendation to the Council had been difficult. She said
she hoped to widen the consensus, but if that could not happen, majority and
e minority reports would be presented to the Council. Mr. Bennett said he
agreed with Ms. Wooten's comments. He said a consensus exi sted on some
issues, but others were terribly difficult. He a 1 so sa i d he favored
proceeding in order to bring the results to the Council soon.
Ms. Wooten said she was sorry to have missed Monday's meeting because of
illness. She added that she had heard news reports, and she said she had no
knowledge of any intent to "sabotage" the law as it was passed by the people.
She said the task force was a "thoughtful, deliberative, and willful group"
that was being careful, not malicious.
Ms. Ehrman said she was not so concerned with expanding the consensus but was
willing to consider two views if they were presented.
Mayor Obie thanked Ms. Ehrman for presiding at Monday's meeting.
II. CERTIFICATE OF ACHIEVEMENT FOR EXCELLENCE IN FINANCIAL
REPORTING FOR FY86
Mayor Obie presented the Government Finance Officer's Association Certificate
of Achievement for Excellence in Financial Reporting to Acting Reporting and
Control Manager Leila Snow on behalf of the Reporting/Control and Fi nance
staffs. The award was for FY86 financial statements. The mayor noted that
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the certificate was the highest form of recognition for governmental
accounting and financial reporting and that the City of Eugene had received
e the award each year for the past seven years. He also noted that Eugene was
one of about 800 award recipients out of a nationwide field of about 40,000
municipalities. Mayor Obie said the certificate of achievement indicated that
City staff clearly were communicating the City's financial story in a way that
motivated potentially interested parties to read the report. He added that
Finance Director Warren Wong had provided leadership for the division, and he
said a significant improvement had occurred since past years. Mayor Obie
thanked and congratulated the Reporting/Control and Finance staffs.
Ms. Snow recognized three groups for their assistance in earning the award:
the City Council, particularly the Audit Subcommittee for its continuing
interest in the City's financial reporting; the operating departments that
provided information to comply with financial reporting requirements; and
staff who had worked on the audit. She expressed appreci at ion for the
continued commitment to excellence.
III. WORK SESSION: URBAN RENEWAL PLAN UPDATE (CONCERNING DISTRICT
EXPANSION/DEVELOPMENT PROJECTS/FINANCING
City Manager Micheal Gleason introduced the item. He explained that it would
be addressed in two parts so that Mayor Obie and Councilor Bennett could
decline to participate in the second part of the discussion, because of
possible conflicts of interest.
Development Director Abe Farkas presented the staff report. He said
e discussion and no decision was planned for today. He said areas of Council
agreement had been reviewed in the agenda item summary, and he asked for areas
in which staff might conduct further research before a decision on the Urban
Renewal Update, whi ch was planned for December. Mr. Farkas said agenda
packets also included a summary of issues that had been raised at the July 13
public hearing and staff members were available to answer questions.
A. District Expansion
Ms. Ehrman asked about the impact of including in the expansion the IBM
property discussed previously. Greg Byrne of the Development Department said
inclusion of that property would have no financial effect on the district and
no bearing on tax increment flow.
Mr. Farkas said the proposed expansion would increase the Urban Renewal
District by almost the entire 20 percent allowed, with about 1.2 percent
remaining. He said the expansion area selected was located in the northwest
portion of downtown because that area had been the site of previous major
improvements, such as the Hilton Hotel and the Eugene Community Conference
Center; because the valuation ratio between improved land and unimproved land
was lower than other surroundi ng areas; and because the Downtown Plan
addressed development activity in that area.
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Mr. Farkas referred councilors to Exhibit A (page A-I) in the draft Urban
Renewal Plan for Central Eugene Project, dated June 19, 1987. Mayor Obie
e asked about discussion of development plans for the block between 6th and 7th
avenues and between Pearl and Oak streets. Mr. Byrne said the four blocks
that formed the "government quadrangl e" were considered an objective for
inclusion because the tax increment tool drove the Urban Renewal program, and
while Lane County might be amenable to a proposal for land that it owned, it
was not actively seeking to market the property. Mr. Byrne added that the
commissions that considered the issue had viewed it as appropriate to exclude
that land from the district, with the possibility of expanding the district if
a proposal was made. Respondi ng to Ms. Bascom's question, he also said
inclusion of the land would have put the district over the 20-percent
expansion limit.
Mr. Miller said he understood that the expansion was one way of generating
more funds for the district. He said part of his concern about that method was
that the district created a self-feeding financing mechanism. He sa i d he
thought the tool was good and workable, but he favored a way of phasing out the
district or diverting funds to other parts of the City with needs. He said he
was not convinced that expansion made sense at the present.
Mr. Gleason said the City's aim had been to close out the district after
construction had been completed and debt services paid off. He said that had
not occurred with most projects in the district, and the update was an attempt
to redirect the retail portion into areas that still lagged behind in terms of
development. He said the tool was not intended to be ongoing and se If-
perpetuating, and staff recognized and attempted to avoid that potential.
e Ms. Ehrman said she understood that the expansion was intended not to generate
additional funds, but to relieve blighted areas. She said that after taking
the tour, she had agreed that some areas qualified. She also said she did not
agree that expansion of the area necessarily would generate more money.
Mr. Rutan said he agreed with the concerns expressed by Mr. Miller. He
suggested examining whether urban renewal had worked, and if so, how well. He
said he was not yet convinced of the need for expanding the district and he
thought the cost to the community should be considered. Mr. Rutan said he did
not sense the intent described by Mr. Gleason, to close out the district. He
said he thought the area should be developed in such a way that private
development and investment would occur without any public involvement, in an
economically self-sustaining geographic area. He said he favored a clearer
focus and statement of objectives.
Responding to Ms. Wooten's question, Mr. Rutan said he was not proposing a
redevelopment plan for areas within the suggested boundary expansion and he
was not certain whether a phase-out policy was needed. Ms. Wooten said she
agreed with the desire for more clarity, but she did not want to thwart the
expansion, which she supported. She also said the expansion was not projected
to pay any money back into the fund for six years.
Mr. Miller said property could be included in the district as a development
tool was needed.
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Mr. Holmer said he had obtained a table representing a rough draft of possible
expenditures over the next 20 years under this plan. He said the first
e expenditure was not scheduled to occur until FY90, when $150,000 was to be
spent for sewers, streets, sidewalks, and alleys. He said another $100,000
was to be spent in FY92, with a total of $600,000 being spent through FY2003.
He said he did not think staff felt the area was urgent for public investment
and he had concerns similar to those expressed by Mr. Rutan and Mr. Miller.
Mr. Far ka s said the primary advantage of having an i dent i fi ed expanded
district was the ability to take advantage of economic opportunities as they
presented themselves. He said that if an area was not identified as part of
the district, a substantial formal process was required to expand the district
and might not respond effectively and efficiently to proposed development. He
said integrated parking and other development tools could be provided only to
businesses within the district.
Ms. Ehrman said she preferred to identify the area now, rather than to add
increments.
Ms. Bascom said the tour had piqued her interest in blight and underused
parking in the proposed expansion area. She said expansion would allow needed
improvements to alleys and sidewalks, adding that she thought it was an
orderly way to proceed and that FY90 was not that far in the future.
Mayor Obie said the expansion would take away from other funds available for
next year's budget, and he asked the Council to consider whether the public
interest was served by greater taxation. He asked about the possibility of
removing some of the land that already had been developed as part of a
e sunsetting process. He also asked about the amount of the cash drain the
expansion was expected to place on the budget over the next ten years.
Mayor Obie also said he had heard concerns about business tenants having
trouble finding spaces to rent for a reasonable cost and he did not want to
eliminate inexpensive business space.
Ms. Wooten said she saw the urban renewa 1 expansion as another economic
development tool and a means by which to encourage public/private development,
not to discourage it. She said she also did not necessarily see the expansion
as a drain on the General Fund that was any more harmful than a capital fund
for sewer extension to Willow Creek or any other infrastructure investment
made by the City in public life. She said the development, prosperity, and
vitality of downtown had been among the Council's high priorities and goals
for more than five years, she thought the expansion would enhance the public
purpose, and she thought the district was less harmful than transferring funds
from the General Fund to the Capital Improvement Program.
Mr. Byrne said the projections would be redone and broken down to show the
figures for the expansion area.
Mr. Bennett said he thought downtown was different and substantially more
important than other shopping areas in the city, and because of that he
favored supporting it effectively and efficiently by the entire community. He
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said he agreed with Mr. Rutan that a stated goal should be the maximum amount
of private investment, because it was the most efficient type. Mr. Bennett
e also said he did not expect to meet that goal soon and he thought decisions
should be based on how the Council perceived the position of downtown relative
to that of the community as a whole. He said blighted areas were so designated
in order to assist areas that otherwise would not develop and that otherwise
would not generate additional tax revenue. He said he hoped the district
would end when downtown was healthy and self-sustaining. In the meantime, he
said he considered downtown the cultural, business, and financial center to
the community and he thought it needed the support provided by expansion.
Mr. Holmer said he agreed with Mr. Bennett's observations about the importance
of downtown, adding that he thought the Urban Renewal Area as currently
defined was a huge area that needed substantial further development. He said
he did not think extension of the boundaries was appropriate when major
planned expenditures over the next 20 years were for developments within the
existing Urban Renewal Area. He also said adding further obligations outside
present boundaries would be unwise until greater incremental progress had
occurred in the current area.
Mayor Obie said he had supported downtown for many years, but he thought the
costs to the rest of the community at some point should be considered.
Ms. Ehrman said she agreed wi th removing from the di stri ct any current
propert i es that already had been developed. Mr. Mill er said dropping
developed properties from the district would eliminate the increments that
were intended to assist further development. He said a transition that would
avoid a net loss of revenue to the City would provide greater incentive to
e phase out increment districts.
Mr. Rutan asked what expectations had been conveyed to property owners in the
district. Mr. Farkas said the district was to end when all of the debt had
been paid off. He added that the community could incur more debt if wanted.
He also said property owners paid the same amounts regardless of whether they
were located inside or outside the district. Mr. Holmer said taxpayers
outside the district would receive a slight increase in rates.
Mr. Byrne said one way to avoid dependency on tax increment funds was to
adhere closely to the State's intent by spending money on capital improvements
and not on operating and maintenance expenses. He said that had been past
practice and was appropriate. He al so said State law allowed a renewal
district the powers of an agency without tax increment funding, which was a
separate section of the law. Mr. Byrne said staff had seen no options for
funding, but if alternatives were identified in the future, those funding
sources could be used by future councils or agencies. He also said the City
was committed to servicing the debt with funds from developed property.
Mr. Bennett said the expanded area would not encompass all of downtown. He
said he agreed that a different approach was required in developing vacant or
underused land than that required for locating a business. He also said he
understood that the City still owned between 20 and 26 percent of the land in
the district, which was vacant, and he saw no other way to succeed with
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development at those sites. Mr. Bennett said he did not think the argument
about dep 1 et i ng the Genera 1 Fund was relevant because vacant land would
e generate no tax revenues. He sa i d he thought downtown involved broad
community support, and he added that tax increment funds should not be used
until development occurred.
Mr. Miller asked whether the Council was the final authority for approval of
the Urban Renewal Area and what would happen if the item were held for three
years. Mr. Gleason said the Council was required to amend the plan, which
required revi ewi ng a set of findings, holding public hearings, and as
designed, referring the plan to the Downtown and Planning Commissions before
the Council's decision. He said another plan amendment process would take
about nine months.
Ms. Bascom said downtowns across the country were proving difficult to
maintain, and she thought the tools should be kept available and the focus
should be kept clear.
Mayor Obie said he was concerned the the Council had assumed too large an
initial task in downtown and he wanted to know the financial impact.
B. Use of Tax Increment Funds
Mr. Holmer said he previously had raised the issue of use of tax increment
funds for the benefit of the Hult Center for the Performing Arts. He said the
center was in the Urban Renewal Area and it sometimes required capital
investments, and he thought that would be a good use of the funds. He said an
opinion from the City Attorney's Office indicated that tax increment funds
e could be used for the Hult Center with a certain amount of discretion.
Mr. Holmer cited types of public improvements permitted in the draft plan
(Section 600, A.2.e. and g.) and asked whether councilors favored use of tax
increment funds for eligible capital projects at the Hult Center (not for
operating costs). Ms. Ehrman and Mr. Miller said they supported such use.
Mr. Holmer said staff predicted a small cash flow in that fund for the next two
or three years. Mr. Byrne confirmed a small projected cash flow during that
time, which he said also would occur along with fairly heavy expenses for mall
improvements to the downtown area. He said a list of priorities could be
presented to the Council for a decision. He also noted that staff had not
included Hult Center expenses in any forecasts done in preparation for the
plan.
Mr. Holmer asked whether authorization to include those projects was adequate.
Mr. Byrne said State law required that the Report on the Urban Renewal Plan,
included in the draft plan, list estimates and completion dates for all
proj ects. He said project estimates were described beginning on page 6 of the
gold section, and staff advi sed that the Council add specifi c project
descriptions, including cost estimates and projected years of completion. He
said other projects could be added at anytime during the annual budget
process, but staff advised that Council make its intent clear by including
desired projects.
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Ms. Ehrman noted that administrative costs were estimated at $500,000, and she
suggested reducing that amount.
e Ms. Bascom asked for clarification of the City Attorney's opinion. Kay Ki ner
James of the City Attorney's Office said eligible Hult Center projects could
be included in the plan. She said the prior plan had included a goal of
providing a "setting" for an auditorium area, but that wordi ng was not
included in the current draft plan. Ms. Kiner James added that she agreed
with the recommendation to make the Council's intent quite clear.
Councilors agreed to direct staff to prepare language for including Hult
Center capital projects in the plan update. Mr. Gleason said staff would
conduct further research and include project language in the document to be
voted on. Mayor Obie said the vote on district expansion and that on the
opening of Willamette Street should be separate. Mr. Farkas suggested holding
another work session for response to issues raised about district expansion.
C. Other Issues
Mr. Holmer asked about the source of funds referred to in Section 600, B.2.a.
( page 6), concerning acquisition and redevelopment of substandard and
blighting conditions. Mr. Farkas said tax increment funds would be the source
for those activities unless other funds were available. Mr. Holmer asked
about the definition of "practical or feasible rehabilitation" not permitted
by conditions. Mr. Farkas sa i d pract i ca 1 and feasible actions could be
defined by economic projections, although he acknowledged that some
subjectivity was involved. Mr. Gleason said the market was the determining
factor in what was practical and feasible, and it was examined when the
e Request For Proposal was issued.
Mr. Holmer asked about the terms "excessive dwelling unit density" in Section
600,B.2.b. Mr. Farkas said national standards for that density were set by
the Department of Housing and Urban Development. Mr. Byrne added that the
standard was based on the number of persons per habitable room. Mr. Holmer
asked whether any instances existed currently in Eugene. Staff said they were
awa re of none.
Ms. Ehrman noted that in agreeing to use funds for the Hult Center, she did not
want to foreclose any options for an expanded library. She asked whether the
plan contained language to accommodate the potential library sites that were
inside the district.
Ms. Wooten said she was not willing to foreclose the option of using increment
funds on the Hult Center or the Library expansion, but she was not necessarily
interested in funding public capital improvements when the poi nt of the
increment district was to facilitate and expedite private development, which
in turn funded pub 1 i c investments. Ms. Ehrman noted that the parking
structure for an expanded library had received many comments at the public
information session, and she noted that the structure would serve other areas
in addition to the Library.
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IV. WORK SESSION: URBAN RENEWAL PLAN UPDATE (MALL IMPROVEMENT/PLAZA/
WILLAMETTE STREET FROM 8TH TO 10TH AVENUES
e Mayor Obie and Councilor Bennett excused themselves at 12:55 p.m., and Council
President Debra Ehrman assumed the chair.
Mr. Farkas requested that the Counci 1 provide direction about areas for
additional staff research.
Ms. Bascom said she continued to receive requests for evidence supporting the
opening of Willamette Street between 8th and 10th avenues. She said she had
circulated the information staff had distributed about successes and failures
of various malls, and she requested additional information from Ed Whitelaw
and any other sources available. Ms. Ehrman said the written record still was
open.
Mr. Rutan said he thought it was important tD listen to the quality, and not
just the quantity, of public comments in trying to ascertain the will of the
people. He said a scientific surveyor vote should be conducted if sides were
going to be counted. Mr. Rutan said he had heard at the public hearing that
opposition to the opening of Willamette Street was not a narrow group of
individuals, and he respected their opinions and was glad they had attended,
but he was not convinced by the number of persons who had testified either
way. He added that he was ready to discuss the issue and to make a decision.
Ms. Ehrman said no vote would be held today because Ms. Schue was absent. She
also said she had a conflict on September 16, so action would have to occur no
sooner than the week after that.
e Ms. Wooten said she originally had opposed the feasibility study for opening
Willamette Street between 8th and 10th avenues, but she later had become more
open to the possibility. She said she, too, was ready to make a decision, and
the deciding factor for her had been unresolved issues, such as the lack of
satisfactory evidence that the opening would improve business and/or
precipitate new development and the lack of resolution of the public plaza
issue among the commission, designers, and staff for more than two years. Ms.
Wooten said she would support the opening of East Broadway, which would make
much more sense, but that had been put aside. She said she did not support the
opening, not because of numbers, but because of common sense. Despite
evidence to the contrary, Ms. Wooten said people enjoyed and wanted the mall,
and she thought it would be foolish to proceed. She added that she felt
strongly enough about the issue to favor eliminating that part of the Urban
Renewal Plan adoption and tabling the issue, referring it to the public, or
both.
Mr. Miller said he thought the Council should slow down and do more homework
on issues such as evidence and design options and should develop agreement
among the community. Mr. Miller also said he was willing to proceed with
increments of the project, such as deciding about the fountain.
Ms. Bascom said she did not think the public had been persuaded that the
street should be opened. She suggested proceeding with a design committee
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that could develop proposals for the fountain and central space. She said
proposals could include a low-cost potential of opening the street to traffic
e latert adding that she thought public support existed for some improvements to
the area.
Mr. Rutan said 90 percent of the comments he had received on the issue had
favored the opening. Ms. Bascom said she did not think a majority would favor
the openingt but she did favor referring the issue to voters for resolution
because it required technical information. She suggested proceeding with a
design committee. Mr. Rutan said he heard support for auto traffic and for no
auto traffict and he did not think a compromise position would satisfy either
group.
Mr. Holmer said he had read a draft of the minutes of the public hearingt and
it had not changed his mind. He said he still thought the street needed to be
opened and he thought specific design options should be presented to the
public. He said he agreed with the suggestion to have a design committee
consider at least two optionst one with the street open and one without. Mr.
Holmer said his contacts conformed more closely to the results cited by Mr.
Rutan than to those of the hearing or letters to the editor. He said he
thought a specific design should be reviewedt and the option should be left
open within the Urban Renewal Plan. He also said he thought public interest
in the issue was so deep that the Council dare not act without in some way
consulting the generality of public opinion. Ms. Wooten said she thought the
Council had an obligation to make a decision before establishing a design
committee. Mr. Holmer said he favored making a recommendation to voters, but
he thought another option should be available in case they rejected the
Council's recommendation. He also said he did not want to make a commitment
e until the Council had seen an explicit design.
Mr. Miller said he thought a potential development would be a factor in the
decisiont and if no development was likely, then money should not be wasted on
useless projects.
Ms. Ehrman noted that the opening of Willamette Street had been linked to the
fountaint the new streetscape design on BroadwaYt and the rest of Broadway.
She said she thought the Council had agreed that rest rooms were needed
somewhere downtownt and she asked whether expansion of the Broadway
streetscape could proceed without a decision on Wi 1 lamette Street. Mr. Farkas
said the financing capacity would need to be examinedt but the Council could
direct staff to do that. He added that it would make sense to consider the
entire project together. Mr. Gleason said the cost of staffing a Broadway
project could preclude further deals for major projects on Willamette Street.
He said the increment available if not spent on the project would allow
investment in Willamette and Broadway. He said that if economics were the
driving factort the Council could proceed with design plans and then not
implement the plans unless the increment flow was significant enough to make
it valuable. He said he thought the issue should be explored in broader terms
than just whether to introduce auto traffic.
Ms. Ehrman said she understood Mr. Rutan's concern about not counting heads to
decide the issue, but she added that her constituency did not appear to agree
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with his. She said she thought a vote of the Council was needed at the next
meeting on the issue, adding that she was concerned about containing costs as
e much as possible. If the street remained closed, she sa i d she thought the
project could proceed with a possible redesi gn of the founta in and the
streetscape, although she noted that a design committee had not been used on
Broadway and mi ght not be needed. Ms. Ehrman added that this issue had
generated the most communication she had received during her time on the
Council. She said the majority of those comments she had received had opposed
the opening, which she could not ignore. She suggested that staff prepare two
motions, one for a design with the street closed and one for a design with the
street open to traffic, and that a vote be held at the next Council meeting on
the issue. Mr. Holmer requested that prior to that vote, staff provide
information on the tax increment income for the past four years and estimates
for the next two years. Ms. Bascom requested an estimate of the design costs,
and she also suggested incorporating into the closed design option an
inexpensive possibility of introducing traffic later. Councilors agreed to
consider two options, one for a Willamette Street design open to traffic and a
second for a design that would be closed to traffic but that later could be
reopened to traffic at minimal expense.
Ms. Ehrman said she did not think proof for a correct decision would be
available and she had found each community to be different and unique. Ms.
Bascom requested that any additional information that became available be sent
to council ors.
Mr. Miller said he did not want to proceed with the opening without public
support.
e Mr. Gleason noted that the Capital Improvements Process was beginning now and
that projects in the draft Urban Renewal Plan would be included in the CIP as
draft proposals (not yet adopted by the Council).
The meeting was adjourned at 1:30 p.m.
(Recorded by Leslie Scales)
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